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	<title>Comments on: Do No Shared Christian Convictions Remain?</title>
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	<description>Reimagining the Future of Faith</description>
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		<title>By: Blog Administrator</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Blog Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 23:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No problem. The duplicate has been removed.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Carmichael</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-407</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Carmichael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 09:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Aargh! I didn&#039;t recognise the double paste in my last post. Sorry. I didn&#039;t think it was THAT good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aargh! I didn&#8217;t recognise the double paste in my last post. Sorry. I didn&#8217;t think it was THAT good!</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Carmichael</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Carmichael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 03:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-405</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s something I wrote for our local paper&#039;s &#039;faith&#039; column. I think it&#039;s relevant here as well:

Connections

Technology, Entertainment and Design. (TED for short: www.ted.com.) It’s has interesting, challenging, thoughtful speakers. Speakers who sometimes can refocus thinking into new clarity.. I was pointed to a TED video by Seth Godin about “The Tribes You Lead”. He was speaking about the way we connect in communities and the change which that can bring to our impact on world circumstances. This fired me up to think about belonging to tribes, and different ways of relating across tribal boundaries.

How are we connected in this world? We have communities of interest: our hobbies, sports and other recreations. We have workplace communities, political memberships, religious communities. And there are more communities we can be, or are connected to. We belong to the groups we do because we love the activities, the people, the culture, the results…

But what about the other ‘tribes’? Often between the tribes there is a history of hostility. The team rivalries and conflicts. Union demarcation disputes. Distinctions which became walls between religious denominations… If we belong with one group, the assumption seemed to be that we must be opposed to the others. Yet, we could wonder – although we somehow seem to have learned conflict between the ‘tribes’ - must it be so?

Can we be proud, without being prejudiced? Can we grant difference, without divisiveness? I think you can, I think I can, I suspect we must. It requires a mindshift. We haven’t usually thought in peacable ways across the tribes. We’ll need to be able to be FOR something, without being AGAINST someone. Our historic training and our public culture doesn&#039;t like that: conflict is deeply woven into our experience. Our histories have often not been pretty, blighting our past and clouding our present. Our practice of contemporary culture: current affairs, reality TV and other media are centred on conflict and opposition: seemingly the more extreme the better.

We can be better than that. And Jesus, as he trained his disciples, taught them so. One day they came to him saying that they’d met someone working in His name, but they stopped him, because he was not one of them. Jesus told them to leave him be “Whoever is not against you is for you!” (Just because this person wasn’t one of them, didn’t mean he wasn’t one of His!)

We can belong with fewer barriers around us and our tribes than we usually do, if we take seriously the boundaries which Jesus draws and stop drawing our own.


Best wishes

Ian Carmichael
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s something I wrote for our local paper&#8217;s &#8216;faith&#8217; column. I think it&#8217;s relevant here as well:</p>
<p>Connections</p>
<p>Technology, Entertainment and Design. (TED for short: <a href="http://www.ted.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.ted.com</a>.) It’s has interesting, challenging, thoughtful speakers. Speakers who sometimes can refocus thinking into new clarity.. I was pointed to a TED video by Seth Godin about “The Tribes You Lead”. He was speaking about the way we connect in communities and the change which that can bring to our impact on world circumstances. This fired me up to think about belonging to tribes, and different ways of relating across tribal boundaries.</p>
<p>How are we connected in this world? We have communities of interest: our hobbies, sports and other recreations. We have workplace communities, political memberships, religious communities. And there are more communities we can be, or are connected to. We belong to the groups we do because we love the activities, the people, the culture, the results…</p>
<p>But what about the other ‘tribes’? Often between the tribes there is a history of hostility. The team rivalries and conflicts. Union demarcation disputes. Distinctions which became walls between religious denominations… If we belong with one group, the assumption seemed to be that we must be opposed to the others. Yet, we could wonder – although we somehow seem to have learned conflict between the ‘tribes’ &#8211; must it be so?</p>
<p>Can we be proud, without being prejudiced? Can we grant difference, without divisiveness? I think you can, I think I can, I suspect we must. It requires a mindshift. We haven’t usually thought in peacable ways across the tribes. We’ll need to be able to be FOR something, without being AGAINST someone. Our historic training and our public culture doesn&#8217;t like that: conflict is deeply woven into our experience. Our histories have often not been pretty, blighting our past and clouding our present. Our practice of contemporary culture: current affairs, reality TV and other media are centred on conflict and opposition: seemingly the more extreme the better.</p>
<p>We can be better than that. And Jesus, as he trained his disciples, taught them so. One day they came to him saying that they’d met someone working in His name, but they stopped him, because he was not one of them. Jesus told them to leave him be “Whoever is not against you is for you!” (Just because this person wasn’t one of them, didn’t mean he wasn’t one of His!)</p>
<p>We can belong with fewer barriers around us and our tribes than we usually do, if we take seriously the boundaries which Jesus draws and stop drawing our own.</p>
<p>Best wishes</p>
<p>Ian Carmichael</p>
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		<title>By: Big Tent Christianity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Announcing the Big Tent Christianity Synchroblog, August 9-13</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Tent Christianity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Announcing the Big Tent Christianity Synchroblog, August 9-13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-401</guid>
		<description>[...] (coming up September 8-9 in Raleigh, NC), has written about “big tent Christianity” before and said this:  “[It is] urgent &#8230; to reclaim a Big Tent Christianity, a centrist return to ‘just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (coming up September 8-9 in Raleigh, NC), has written about “big tent Christianity” before and said this:  “[It is] urgent &#8230; to reclaim a Big Tent Christianity, a centrist return to ‘just [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Brandsmeier</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-333</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Brandsmeier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-333</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your work and ministry. You have changed my perception of theological scholarship, re-interested me in academia, and given me much hope for the future of the Church. Please keep engaging us and exploring with us. And keep on bloggin&#039; away!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your work and ministry. You have changed my perception of theological scholarship, re-interested me in academia, and given me much hope for the future of the Church. Please keep engaging us and exploring with us. And keep on bloggin&#8217; away!</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Clayton</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-332</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Clayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-332</guid>
		<description>Dear Friends, I&#039;m sorry I went silent &amp; didn&#039;t respond in a timely manner to your last posts. Way too much travel, too much time on the road, too many publication deadlines. I&#039;ll do better in the future. I propose doing a post that addresses John and Jeff&#039;s closing concerns, and a separate one that responds to Brian Brandsmeier. (Brian, your post actually inspired some intense discussions with other Christian leaders, and has actually led me to change how I will present my message in the future. I don&#039;t want to respond as the 58th response to this older post, but in a fresh blog.)

For years I wrote theology books where the only responses I got were in other publications and debates at professional meetings. By the time the responses came in, one had already moved on to other topics. Your responses come in while the thoughts are still fresh. As a result, my thinking evolves in dialogue with you. This is an amazing change, and I value it very much. So thanks!

-- Philip</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Friends, I&#8217;m sorry I went silent &amp; didn&#8217;t respond in a timely manner to your last posts. Way too much travel, too much time on the road, too many publication deadlines. I&#8217;ll do better in the future. I propose doing a post that addresses John and Jeff&#8217;s closing concerns, and a separate one that responds to Brian Brandsmeier. (Brian, your post actually inspired some intense discussions with other Christian leaders, and has actually led me to change how I will present my message in the future. I don&#8217;t want to respond as the 58th response to this older post, but in a fresh blog.)</p>
<p>For years I wrote theology books where the only responses I got were in other publications and debates at professional meetings. By the time the responses came in, one had already moved on to other topics. Your responses come in while the thoughts are still fresh. As a result, my thinking evolves in dialogue with you. This is an amazing change, and I value it very much. So thanks!</p>
<p>&#8211; Philip</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Brandsmeier</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-331</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Brandsmeier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-331</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s hard to rally people behind a moderate message. It&#039;s easier to rally people behind something bold (e.g. liberal or conservative). I&#039;m not saying this is right or wrong. But it just seems to be the way the culture right now. We live in the culture of the bold. The trick is to make sure we don&#039;t attack the other bold people who may disagree with us. And this makes &quot;big tent&quot; movements especially important. But &quot;big tent&quot; movements don&#039;t mean we need to meet in a smaller, moderate tent. Or only be allowed in the tent if we promise to leave our commitments, perspectives, and uniquenesses behind.

I&#039;m very supportive of interfaith and ecumenical collaboration. One of my professors in my seminary days was Michael Kinnamon, who inspired me to care deeply about the helpful and important work that is done through these collaborations. This is especially important in a dualistic, us-versus-them culture. But a commitment to collaboration doesn&#039;t require us to meet in the middle - or be something we&#039;re not. Instead, it requires that we bring our authentic selves to meet the authentic selves of others.

I recently joined the Consultation of Religious Communities, an interfaith council composed of more than thirty religious communities and related agencies. We don&#039;t pretend to all be the same. We don&#039;t leave our uniquenesses behind. We don&#039;t all pretend to meet in a safe middle ground. Instead, Jews some as Jews, Muslims come as Muslims, Catholics come as Catholics, Protestants come as Protestants, etc. Instead of a grey melting pot, we form a colorful tossed salad.

Here&#039;s the color I bring: I&#039;m a feminist, earthist, ONA pastor. And this kind of pastor for many Biblical and moral reasons. I&#039;m also compelled by process theology and open theism. To some, these commitments put me in the &quot;liberal&quot; camp. And if it does, then that&#039;s were I stand. I can do no other. My hope is that others are allowed to stand where they feel compelled to stand, too. I fully realize that my perspective will be different than other people&#039;s perspectives. It&#039;s the dialogue and collaboration between diverse peoples that makes the collaborative dialogue and work interesting.

Rather than attempting to unite everyone in a mushy middle, why not use a more postmodern approach that honors unity-in-diversity. Many diverse peoples united under one &quot;big tent.&quot; Liberals, moderates, and conservatives can be unified despite our different commitments, perspectives, and uniquenesses. To use the language of Apostle Paul, we&#039;re each different members of the one and same body.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, in his book The Dignity of Difference, says it best: 

&quot;Difference does not diminish; it enlarges the sphere of human possibilities. Our last best hope is to recall the classic statement of John Donne and the more ancient story of Noah after the Flood and hear, in the midst of our hypermodernity, an old-new call to a global covenant of human responsibility and hope. Only when we realize the danger of wishing that everyone should be the same — the same faith on the one hand, the same McWorld on the other — will we prevent the clash of civilizations, born of the sense of threat and fear. We will learn to live with diversity once we understand the God-given, world-enhancing dignity of difference.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s hard to rally people behind a moderate message. It&#8217;s easier to rally people behind something bold (e.g. liberal or conservative). I&#8217;m not saying this is right or wrong. But it just seems to be the way the culture right now. We live in the culture of the bold. The trick is to make sure we don&#8217;t attack the other bold people who may disagree with us. And this makes &#8220;big tent&#8221; movements especially important. But &#8220;big tent&#8221; movements don&#8217;t mean we need to meet in a smaller, moderate tent. Or only be allowed in the tent if we promise to leave our commitments, perspectives, and uniquenesses behind.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very supportive of interfaith and ecumenical collaboration. One of my professors in my seminary days was Michael Kinnamon, who inspired me to care deeply about the helpful and important work that is done through these collaborations. This is especially important in a dualistic, us-versus-them culture. But a commitment to collaboration doesn&#8217;t require us to meet in the middle &#8211; or be something we&#8217;re not. Instead, it requires that we bring our authentic selves to meet the authentic selves of others.</p>
<p>I recently joined the Consultation of Religious Communities, an interfaith council composed of more than thirty religious communities and related agencies. We don&#8217;t pretend to all be the same. We don&#8217;t leave our uniquenesses behind. We don&#8217;t all pretend to meet in a safe middle ground. Instead, Jews some as Jews, Muslims come as Muslims, Catholics come as Catholics, Protestants come as Protestants, etc. Instead of a grey melting pot, we form a colorful tossed salad.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the color I bring: I&#8217;m a feminist, earthist, ONA pastor. And this kind of pastor for many Biblical and moral reasons. I&#8217;m also compelled by process theology and open theism. To some, these commitments put me in the &#8220;liberal&#8221; camp. And if it does, then that&#8217;s were I stand. I can do no other. My hope is that others are allowed to stand where they feel compelled to stand, too. I fully realize that my perspective will be different than other people&#8217;s perspectives. It&#8217;s the dialogue and collaboration between diverse peoples that makes the collaborative dialogue and work interesting.</p>
<p>Rather than attempting to unite everyone in a mushy middle, why not use a more postmodern approach that honors unity-in-diversity. Many diverse peoples united under one &#8220;big tent.&#8221; Liberals, moderates, and conservatives can be unified despite our different commitments, perspectives, and uniquenesses. To use the language of Apostle Paul, we&#8217;re each different members of the one and same body.</p>
<p>Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, in his book The Dignity of Difference, says it best: </p>
<p>&#8220;Difference does not diminish; it enlarges the sphere of human possibilities. Our last best hope is to recall the classic statement of John Donne and the more ancient story of Noah after the Flood and hear, in the midst of our hypermodernity, an old-new call to a global covenant of human responsibility and hope. Only when we realize the danger of wishing that everyone should be the same — the same faith on the one hand, the same McWorld on the other — will we prevent the clash of civilizations, born of the sense of threat and fear. We will learn to live with diversity once we understand the God-given, world-enhancing dignity of difference.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-305</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 21:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-305</guid>
		<description>Rephrasing the above - What is the &quot;children&#039;s version&quot; of theology transformed or the new story you would use for the new convert, the uneducated, the child, for that is where it all starts in real life and our growth and maturing is but a deepening and expansion of that original story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rephrasing the above &#8211; What is the &#8220;children&#8217;s version&#8221; of theology transformed or the new story you would use for the new convert, the uneducated, the child, for that is where it all starts in real life and our growth and maturing is but a deepening and expansion of that original story.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 21:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-304</guid>
		<description>Philip, both you and Brian Mclaren came to faith in Christ under the aegis of the &quot;old story&quot;. Now you want to come up with a &quot;new story&quot; to present the Triune God. The acid test  for the new story you come up with is whether it will pass faith in Jesus on to the children of those who believe in the new story and also pass it on to new converts. Obviously a previous attempt to update the gospel failed in the mainline denominations as their children didn&#039;t pick up the torch and few if any converts arrived and embraced the liberal gospel of  &quot;who can know if the tomb was empty ( but probably not), but there is a God we think somehow, and the Bible has good moral teachings, but in any case let&#039;s be nice people and help the poor and stand up for abortion rights and it will all work out for the better if we&#039; ll try hard and spread love and kindness&quot;. If the new story doesn&#039;t pass this test (only time will tell if it does), it will be a parasite that gains converts from those converted or influenced by the old story and for some reason have grown dissatisfied, something like a high end Mormonism or Jehovah Witnesses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip, both you and Brian Mclaren came to faith in Christ under the aegis of the &#8220;old story&#8221;. Now you want to come up with a &#8220;new story&#8221; to present the Triune God. The acid test  for the new story you come up with is whether it will pass faith in Jesus on to the children of those who believe in the new story and also pass it on to new converts. Obviously a previous attempt to update the gospel failed in the mainline denominations as their children didn&#8217;t pick up the torch and few if any converts arrived and embraced the liberal gospel of  &#8220;who can know if the tomb was empty ( but probably not), but there is a God we think somehow, and the Bible has good moral teachings, but in any case let&#8217;s be nice people and help the poor and stand up for abortion rights and it will all work out for the better if we&#8217; ll try hard and spread love and kindness&#8221;. If the new story doesn&#8217;t pass this test (only time will tell if it does), it will be a parasite that gains converts from those converted or influenced by the old story and for some reason have grown dissatisfied, something like a high end Mormonism or Jehovah Witnesses.</p>
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		<title>By: John King</title>
		<link>http://philipclayton.net/2010/04/20/do-no-shared-christian-convictions-remain/comment-page-2/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>John King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 00:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayton.ctr4process.org/?p=301#comment-299</guid>
		<description>Dr. Clayton,

A very good review of your book Transforming Christian Theology on the blog of Thomas Jay Oord.  I follow his blog and have found his comments very helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Clayton,</p>
<p>A very good review of your book Transforming Christian Theology on the blog of Thomas Jay Oord.  I follow his blog and have found his comments very helpful.</p>
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